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Old February 19th, 2010
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Default Stalker DSR 2X & Radar/laser - In Action!

Stalker DSR 2X Police Radar stationary mode with voice announcing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfNP...eature=related
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http://escortradarforum.com/forums/s...1131#post11131

Last edited by CJR238; March 19th, 2010 at 07:02 PM.
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Old February 19th, 2010
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Thumbs down DSR x2 Revenue Radar

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJR238 View Post
Stalker DSR 2X Police Radar stationary mode with voice announcing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfNPSKC66U&feature=related
Yes........it's a wonderful unit isn't it.

Now let's talk about how the IACP/NHSTA is becoming a revolving door for Radar Manufactureres to waltz right through with units like this that get approved.

The DSR x2 is a revenue machine.....plane and simple! It's optimized for writing tickets while providing the LEO with every oppurtunity to make every mistake possible in obtaining a speed reading. Twenty years ago, this unit would not have received IACP approval specifically because of all the bells and whistles it offers.

Let's step back to the 80's for a moment. The IACP would not approve any radar that had a simple option that allowed for sounding an alert upon reading a speed above a preset threshold set by the LEO. Why, because such an option would enable the LEO to lock readings with undue attention to the fundamentals of aquiring a valid target tracking history..........ie. his full attention to the target being read from entry into the radar's beam until it exited.

That was just one simple option. Now, radar units like the DSR x2 have a multitude of features that either exceed the LEO's ability to pay due attention to a specific target or flat out enable the LEO to circumvent all the steps necessary to aquire a valid tracking history.

The video you attached is an example of the DSR x2 being operated in an acceptable fashion (operator is not a LEO by the way). The doppler audio is clear, the targets are being tracked through the radar's beam, and the voice announcements confirm the antenna selected and targets direction of travel.........simply terrific.

Now, let's take a look at how the DSR x2 allows an operator to do everything wrong while providing an overload of target readings with insufficient data to confirm those readings. Here is the magnificent DSR x2 running in what I call "Operator Overload Mode", tracking two directions with both strongest and fastest targets displayed.

Exibit A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCH6n7pU_uM

Notice the first glaring problem? No doppler audio. Since there is no way to convey four seperate audio tones to the corresponding target window.....not that the human ear could handle it anyway......there is no doppler audio in "Operator Overload Mode". One of the fundamental requirements of obtaining a valid tracking history is the observation of the corresponding doppler audio to the target speed reading.

Are we to believe that it's possible for a LEO to drive his vehicle in traffic while observing four targets traveling in opposite directions and ensure the readings are accurate by verifying his patrol speed and doppler audio.....oops I forgot, there is no doppler audio.....all at the same time? Of course not, I had to violate a fundamental rule of good writing by cramming all that into one sentence!

The problem is not all about exceeding human ability either. Even the radar has trouble doing all this at one time. Notice the phantom 110 mph opposite fastest reading at the 17 second mark of the video. I wonder where that guy came from and went in an instant? Throughout the video you see brief fastest readings appear, disappear and toggle with the primary target speed window. A fairly complicated jumble of readings to observe at home watching it on the tube........try making heads or tails of that while driving.

Apparently our friend (the LEO) suffers from not having our advantage. By having the ability to rewind and focus on the radar display, I can tell that the targets he locks at 4:07 of the video are one and the same vehicle. He thinks he locked two different vehicles!

So four target speed windows is probably three too many (two too many for sure) for a human to handle. Fastest mode also makes it a real chore to ascertain which vehicle is producing that speed, since it is not the closest vehicle but rather could be any of 2 or more (pick any number) of vehicles within range of the radar. In my opinion, Fastest mode should be reserved for monitoring one direction of travel and only in Stationary mode.

My last few beefs with the DSR x2 is shared with just about every other modern radar on the market.

First is the ability to turn off the doppler audio. The purpose of the doppler audio is; 1) To ensure the return signal is static (interference) free, 2) Used to aid the operator in correct target identification by coenciding his/her visual observation with the sound of the target passing through the radar's beam and 3) The pitch of the audio should correspond to the target speed reading. How can any of this happen with the audio turned off?

My last gripe is with the built in speed with which a reading can be obtained by "Quick Triggering" the radar. Stalker, as well as other manufacturers, intentionally build in features such as VSS and special remotes for faster on/off operation.

Instant-On Remote
This remote is designed for departments that do not require Fast Lock operation but routinely use the “instant-on” feature. A dedicated XMIT/HOLD key provides instant transmitter ON/OFF operation.

Both these features are an open invitation for the LEO to circumvent the requirement to obtain a valid target tracking history by allowing extremely short transmitter bursts of radar that produce a target speed reading. By using the radar in this fashion, the doppler audio is useless whether it's on or off and no tracking history is obtained with the radar unit itself.

Exhibit B:


To go back to my opening statement........Radar's like the DSR x2 should never have received IACP approval (and therefore grant money from the NHSTA to assist police agencies with purchases of these units) in the first place. There are just too many mistakes to be made using this equipment.

Last edited by Nine_c1; February 20th, 2010 at 02:27 AM.
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Old February 19th, 2010
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Great info Nine-c1. But, My, aren't we chatty tonight Congratulations on the longest sentences I've seen in a long time.
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Old February 20th, 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfs165 View Post
Great info Nine-c1. But, My, aren't we chatty tonight Congratulations on the longest sentences I've seen in a long time.
Heh heh......I am passionate about my dislike of this unit! I actually got into a debate with a NYS Trooper over a bad reading he took with a Stalker Dual SL. It happened to be my friend that he stopped and I was in the passenger seat.

We were on our way back to work from lunch (traveling in the passing lane) when I noticed him coming the other way. I glanced over at our speed (56 in a 45 zone) and was about to call him out when a Toyota Corolla blows by us on the right. At that point I figured, ouch...., that guys going to get it!

Without a doubt, the Trooper pulls a u-turn and hits the lights. The only surprise was when he pulled up on our tail and hit the siren!

So he comes to the window and starts the routine.......D/L, Registration and do you know why I stopped you? My buddy is a bundle of nerves (not used to this like me) and says nothing when the Trooper informs him he was doing 63 in a 45.

This is where me and my big mouth kicked in. He didn't like me very much but was surpised when I told him that the fastest reading on his Stalker was from the Blue car that passed us on the right. He said no, that it was us and that we slowed down when he hit us with the radar. I told him he was crazy......we didn't even have an RD in the car (my buddy doesn't believe in them).

Well the story ends with my friend getting a warning with the Trooper saying "I'm gonna cut YOU a break because YOU didn't argue with me".

So even the Stalker Dual can be misinterpreted. And of course, my friend really believes it was his docile behavior that avoided the ticket and that I almost cost him one.

I agree with you though, I could have been more concise and just said The Stalker DSR x2 is a POS!

Last edited by Nine_c1; February 20th, 2010 at 12:04 AM.
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Old February 20th, 2010
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Who says you can't fix stupid (sometimes). With your video assist I actually understood where you were comming from and why. Kinda like global warming, got some data and right or wrong thats good enough for the judge. As long as you get the research grant or ticket revenue.
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Old February 20th, 2010
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The DSR X2 is my favorite LEO radar unit, by far the best IMO. Its like us having a 9500ci with arrows and its abilities are only limited by the user.

I see it as an excellent tool to verify what the officer is seeing and simplify his job. Though like anything else that's open for interpretation and there can be mistakes.

Most officers around me i have found limit there use of the DSR X2 features and only monitor in one direction. With the multiple displays sure it can give confusing information especially without a Doppler tone, however the LEO does have eyes and always verifies what the vehicle in question is doing. They rarely just blindly accept what there unit is telling them.

Don't forget LEO's are trained to simply see a car and guess its speed within a few miles an hour. So in the end the unit they use is really a verifying method or a tool to make there job easer.

IMO i would rather have my locals use the DSR X2 over any other unit, and they do.
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My 9500I/ix review and TrueLock info:
http://escortradarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96

My install:
http://www.rdforum.org/showthread.php?t=37598

http://escortradarforum.com/forums/s...1131#post11131

Last edited by CJR238; February 20th, 2010 at 02:10 PM.
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Old February 20th, 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJR238 View Post
The DSR X2 is my favorite LEO radar unit, by far the best IMO. Its like us having a 9500ci with arrows and its abilities are only limited by the user.

I see it as an excellent tool to verify what the officer is seeing and simplify his job. Though like anything else that's open for interpretation and there can be mistakes.

Most officers around me i have found limit there use of the DSR X2 features and only monitor in one direction. With the multiple displays sure it can give confusing information especially without a Doppler tone, however the LEO does have eyes and always verifies what the vehicle in question is doing. They rarely just blindly accept what there unit is telling them.

Don't forget LEO's are trained to simply see a car and guess its speed within a few miles an hour. So in the end the unit they use is really a verifying method or a tool to make there job easer.

IMO i would rather have my locals use the DSR X2 over any other unit, and they do.
We shall disagree on this matter sir until the end of time.

IMO the DSR x2 (in it's multidirectional, multi target mode) is incapable of providing all the necessary information in order for the LEO to follow proper procedure (as outlined by the NHSTA) to obtain a valid tracking history. Doppler audio is required on EVERY radar unit approved by the IACP and NHSTA for traffic speed measurement. The fact that they passed a unit that operates in modes prohibiting the use of this feature was a gross oversight.....or worse....disregard for their own standards.

As for LEO's being able to accurately access a vehicles speed by visual observation alone...........I say HOGWASH! LEO's have the same brains we do and therefore are guessing just like anyone else. If it were true that their "specialized training" enables them to do this then there would be no need for Radar or Lidar and we'd have a LEO sitting behind the mound at baseball games to tell us the speed of every pitch.

Don't forget, the only thing we are trying to accomplish with our radar detectors is simply detect a signal. We don't NEED to know if it's in front or behind nor which specific vehicle of the ten in sight is producing the signal. It would be nice, but it's not critical to know........we hear a warning and we slow down. This information is absolutely critical when it comes to the radar unit itself however. Units like the DSR x2 give the false pretense that a LEO can track and observe up to four or more targets at one time........impossible! I say more than four because the two fastest target readings on his display can be any two vehicles within range (up to a mile in either direction) of the radar unit.

I've witnessed first hand the mistakes made with a Stalker Dual operated in a single direction with Fastest mode enabled while moving. This by a "Trained" State Trooper. I can only imagine how many bad tickets are being written with units like the DSR x2 in less capable hands.
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Old February 20th, 2010
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We shall disagree on this matter sir until the end of time.

I can not argee with you more Nine-c1. The target vehicles do not have IFF. On multiple vehicle hits,the radar can't tell which one is doing what. The targets are'nt Xmitting "I'm a ford tarus doing 83 MPH" or "I'm an 18 wheeler doing the PSL" but because I happen to be the biggest target it's going to be my fault.
The LEO has to make these decisions in seconds and IMO it can not be done accurately by any stretch of the imagination. As a former strike controller with radars and tracking computers worth millions of dollars, multiple bogeys (no IFF) are tough. It takes minutes to figure out who is doing what and, even though we had alot of time and experience to figure it out, it was still a best guess for us and the computers.
I don't care how well LEO is trained, IMO he/she cannot, in a few seconds, pick out the correct offender, from multiple targets, with a $2000 radar gun. Unless, of course the guy blows by you.
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Last edited by mfs165; February 20th, 2010 at 06:08 PM.
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Old February 20th, 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine_c1 View Post
We shall disagree on this matter sir until the end of time.

IMO the DSR x2 (in it's multidirectional, multi target mode) is incapable of providing all the necessary information in order for the LEO to follow proper procedure (as outlined by the NHSTA) to obtain a valid tracking history. Doppler audio is required on EVERY radar unit approved by the IACP and NHSTA for traffic speed measurement. The fact that they passed a unit that operates in modes prohibiting the use of this feature was a gross oversight.....or worse....disregard for their own standards.

As for LEO's being able to accurately access a vehicles speed by visual observation alone...........I say HOGWASH! LEO's have the same brains we do and therefore are guessing just like anyone else. If it were true that their "specialized training" enables them to do this then there would be no need for Radar or Lidar and we'd have a LEO sitting behind the mound at baseball games to tell us the speed of every pitch.

Don't forget, the only thing we are trying to accomplish with our radar detectors is simply detect a signal. We don't NEED to know if it's in front or behind nor which specific vehicle of the ten in sight is producing the signal. It would be nice, but it's not critical to know........we hear a warning and we slow down. This information is absolutely critical when it comes to the radar unit itself however. Units like the DSR x2 give the false pretense that a LEO can track and observe up to four or more targets at one time........impossible! I say more than four because the two fastest target readings on his display can be any two vehicles within range (up to a mile in either direction) of the radar unit.

I've witnessed first hand the mistakes made with a Stalker Dual operated in a single direction with Fastest mode enabled while moving. This by a "Trained" State Trooper. I can only imagine how many bad tickets are being written with units like the DSR x2 in less capable hands.
Look at it in simpler terms. Though i agree multidirectional, multi target mode can give a lot of info that could be confusing. The idea is to allow the LEO to know mutable threats speeds so he can accurately know the speeds of the vehicles instead of getting one read out and guessing which one.

I would much rather have a LEO showing 3 of the 3 peoples speeds and a reference of which is faster and closer. This information makes it much easer to pick out and see which is which.

LEO's can accurately access a vehicles speed by visual observation, its a well know fact. Even the average person can do this with minimal training. Big car going obviously faster than the speed limit between 2 points is pretty easy to figure out.
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My 9500I/ix review and TrueLock info:
http://escortradarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96

My install:
http://www.rdforum.org/showthread.php?t=37598

http://escortradarforum.com/forums/s...1131#post11131
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Old February 20th, 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfs165 View Post
We shall disagree on this matter sir until the end of time.

I can not argee with you more Nine-c1. The target vehicles do not have IFF. On multiple vehicle hits,the radar can't tell which one is doing what. The targets are'nt Xmitting "I'm a ford tarus doing 83 MPH" or "I'm an 18 wheeler doing the PSL" but because I happen to be the biggest target it's going to be my fault.
The LEO has to make these decisions in seconds and IMO it can not be done accurately by any stretch of the imagination. As a former strike controller with radars and tracking computers worth millions of dollars, multiple bogeys (no IFF) are tough. It takes minutes to figure out who is doing what and, even though we had alot of time and experience to figure it out, it was still a best guess for us and the computers.
I don't care how well LEO is trained, IMO he/she cannot, in a few seconds, pick out the correct offender, from multiple targets, with a $2000 radar gun. Unless, of course the guy blows by you.
Though i agree the DSR X2 cant tell the difference the LEO certainly can tell the difference between an 18 wheeler and a ford tarus. Plus they all will blow by the LEO at some point.
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Max, RedLine, 9500ci, 9500ix, 9500I x2, 8500, X50 Black, PRO300, SmartRadar, V1, Passport.

My 9500I/ix review and TrueLock info:
http://escortradarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96

My install:
http://www.rdforum.org/showthread.php?t=37598

http://escortradarforum.com/forums/s...1131#post11131
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